Would this be a good place? I can make it a private page if you’d rather, though I’m not sure how it works quite yet.
Life is dark clouds and blue skies–what makes a silver lining?
Would this be a good place? I can make it a private page if you’d rather, though I’m not sure how it works quite yet.
September 3, 2006 at 2:36 am
Leslie, this would be a great place to continue our conversation. I’m not that uptight about “privacy.” I know that when it comes to the Internet, there really isn’t any on these blogs.
I assume your post on warm fuzzies got some of its inspiration from what I said on the Thinklings. I just have to say that I don’t deny the reality of them– warm fuzzies are very real; and so are the negative stressors that effect us all the time. I’m just saying that neither the good feelings nor the bad ones should be our primary source for decision making and life direction. Sure, they can be very valuable– they have their place. But when those subjective feelings (the “warm fuzzies”) are the ONLY thing a person has to go on, that’s dangerous territory.
For me, I came to the place where I realized that my “relationship” with Jesus didn’t have any basis in FACT. The ONLY thing it had was the occasional warm fuzzy. I could find no way to really, truly confirm whether or not Jesus was listening to me, talking to me, or for that matter, even THERE. And then I had to call into question those warm fuzzy feelings as well. Could it be that those good feelings might be misplaced? One thing I’ve learned in recent years is that I cannot trust my feelings. They are frequently misplaced and based on misinformation or misinterpretation of the facts.
Many people get good feelings for the wrong reasons. There are bajillions of people who believe what they believe, and work themselves into confirming those beliefs with subjective, misguided feelings that you and many other observers would characterize as incorrect or misplaced. Take the Mormons, the Muslims, the Hindus, the athiests… Many people in each of these camps have warm fuzzy feelings that they use to prop up their belief systems.
I just decided that I couldn’t base my faith on those feelings anymore. The Bible is interpreted in so many different ways by so many various groups that I just couldn’t find the undeniable “truth” there either (take the Baptists, the Catholics, the Methodists, the Lutherans, the Charasmatics, even non-religious “scholars”… there are many well-meaning people who disagree vehemently about what the Bible says and how it’s to be interpreted.)
So, anyway, that’s where I stand on warm fuzzys… and on the negative stressors of life as well.
September 3, 2006 at 3:18 pm
The funny thing is, although some of what you said did push me to finish the post, I had begun a draft with title before I ever met you.
I completely agree about the feelings issue. They are not trustworthy for decision making. I completely agree with you when you say that many use those feelings as their sole spiritual guide, but by the same token, some deny all things supernatural simply because of a lack of them. I believe, like you, that they have their place but they need to be kept in their proper place–an accessory, not the outfit.
I have to tell you that I have a lot of respect for you in that you know that you can’t have it both ways when it comes to a relationship with God. I have never once heard you argue the point that you should be able to live a flamboyantly homosexual life and be right with God at the same time. Whether you have faith right now or not, you know that if you choose one you reject the other. The issue is about why you choose one over the other, not if. Bravo.
There are two things that have been rolling around in my brain these last few days after reading your response at Thinklings. I will adress each at more length if I have time today.
The first is that you stated two things in the same conversation: you weren’t involved in anything remotely resembling cheating on your wife when you were ratted out to the church, and that you self-gratify over male porn. I would argue that if done within the same time period (while you were yet married), you have bought the lie a lot of men fall into regarding porn–that it only affects you. I’ll come back to this.
The second is the assumption that God doesn’t want a gay-porn addict in his family. You said, “How can I be of any value to God if all I do is wile away the time looking at pictures of men and self-gratifying? My whole life has been squandered, at least up until this point. But for some reason, God seems to think a gay porn addicted man is just what he wants?” Well, let’s start with Paul.
The great and mighty tent-making, content-with-little-or-much Paul. When you used to study scripture, what did you make of Romans 7 and 8? Starting with 7:7, he first addresses the issue of the law and how without it we were ignorant in our sin and that the law makes us aware of how sinful we are. Then he laments his inability to continually do what is good and holy in God’s sight. The main point is, “I really really want to please God and I just keep messing up even though I hate that I do it I just keep doing it and. . .ugh!” Next, as we move into chapter eight, he addresses life in the spirit and the idea of there being no condemnation in Christ because we have been freed from the law. If it’s been a long time, I would request that you reread these two chapters just for the sake of argument. I’m sure you can look it up online if you no longer have a bible.
Personally, I think the passage of Paul’s lament is clearer in the NLV versus the NIV. The NIV tends to be confusing and seem repetitive without concerted scrutiny because it uses the same terms over and over. The NLV breaks up the monotony and gets the point across more effectively in my opinion.
I have to go now, but I have more to say on both issues. I would like to know your thoughts on that section of Romans, though. Past and present.
One last thing–for a man who says he doesn’t believe in God anymore, you certainly hit the nail on the head when you said that God always wants the one thing you refuse to give him. “Twas always thus,” I think. Someday I’ll tell you about becoming a stay at home mom and the lie I lived for several years, trying to be something I’m not, and why I abandoned it yet still continued to be a full time at home mom.
September 3, 2006 at 11:30 pm
No, I do not buy in to the lie that porn only affected me. It tarnished my relationship with both my wife and our sons. It obviously ultimately contributed to the dissolution of our marriage. No, porn is certainly not a victimless sin. What I was saying by mentioning that I wasn’t involved in anything remotely resembling cheating on my wife was that I had never made any kind of sexual contact with another person– of any kind. There was no adultery. Yes, there was spiritual, mental and emotional unfaithfulness, but there was nothing that warranted me being exposed the way my brother-in-law did. At that point, there was still hope for our marriage. I was seriously considering a temporary separation, not even a divorce. But my brother-in-law was convinced that I had been given over to debauchery and he took it upon himself to handle the situation himself.
I was (and still am) always extremely disappointed with Romans 7 and 8. After all the great talk of Romans 7, where I am so excited to learn that I am not the only man in this kind of situation, then it ends with “Who can set me free from my sinful old self? God’s Law has power over my mind, but sin still has power over my sinful old self. I thank God I can be free through Jesus Christ our Lord!” What that sounds like to me is that Jesus Christ our Lord can set us free from all of this doing what we don’t want to do! And even in the beginning of Chapter 8, we are told that the power of the Holy Spirit HAS MADE us free from the power of sin! Wow!
The only problem is, after that, all it says is if we give ourselves over to the Holy Spirit, we will have victory, and if we don’t, we won’t. What it does here is start a bunch of circular reasoning that really is not helpful at all! None of this “we already HAVE victory over sin” talk made any difference in actual life.